I meant to get back to you sooner on your response to my previous comment.
Here I’ll just offer that it’s not clear that someone who doesn’t believe that sins can be mortal can commit a mortal sin. That something is serious and immoral seems insufficient to create the condition, the person, even if they are Catholic, has to believe that what they propose to do will cut them off from the Divine Life. Or so I have heard from knowledgeable Catholics.
As for your other citations from the Catechism, I don’t see how they can be applied to Protestants without negating the passages in their favor elsewhere. One, or the other must be ultimately true of them and the other false, or not applicable.
Every context of Mortal Sin for Catholics does not necessarily apply to Protestants. For example, receiving the Eucharist in a state of Mortal Sin cannot apply to Protestants since they cannot receive the Eucharist. This also would be a revealed truth, not a natural one.
However, Protestants do believe in mortal sins of Natural Law. For example, if someone claims to be Christian and performs abortions, Protestants will say that the person is not a "true" believer or they were never saved, to begin with. The epistemology may differ between Catholics and particular Protestant sects, but the result is still the same, separation from God.
So you're correct in that some things would not apply consistently, because of the nature of Protestantism not being definable, and secondly, because Mortal sins fall into two categories: issues of disobedience that only apply to Catholics, and issues of disobedience that violate God's natural law.
If Catholicism is true, then the sacrament of penance and the Eucharist -- i.e., Jesus Christ -- is the universal solution to the universal problem. This isn't to say that God does not make exceptions (see thief on the Cross), but if our theology leads to more people getting into Heaven due to their ignorance, than due to their belief and obedience to Christ, then we have misunderstood the Gospel.
Always interesting to observe how different people have a very different view the same Scripture. I can't remember when I first read that passage in John 6 but the meaning has always been very clear for the past 50 year or so. Life's journey for each one is their own. What a Hoot.
My thots on John 6:26-31 that started about 50 years ago and continues to today. An interesting journey. See what you think. No comparisons to Catholic doctrine. Just my thots.
John 6:26-31
26 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
- First off - - they were not looking for their Messiah, the King of kings
- They wanted physical, earthly food
- OK – now what
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
- The logical question, but keeping in mind that they really don’t want Jesus they just what the earthly food he can provide.
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
- Believe in the one he has sent - - interesting
- They had no problem believing the earthly food but could not understand Jesus offered heavenly food or that which is not of this world
- So – about 50 years ago this struck me
-
30 So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
- Jesus calls them up to himself as their Messiah but they want signs just like the religious leaders
- So, just exactly how much sign did they need and how much sign do we need to believe in Jesus as the Son of God and avior that has come????
- Or - - will we follow Jesus regardless of what happens in life????
Mary Ann said the words that Jesus was the Savior and Lord in Catholic Mass but she wasn’t saved and a Christian until she read the Four Spiritual Laws. She understood the first three laws because of the solid teaching of the Catholic church in her youth. She was in college and attending Mass every day because she was serious about her relationship with the Lord. But she still was not a Christian and had not yet received what Paul talks about in Gal 4:6 - - “And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" And again in John 15:26 - - "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.” And three times in Romans 8 Paul talks about us receiving the Holy Spirit as evidence that we are, as Paul says, children of God. She had not received the Holy Spirit and was not a child of God even with all the religious observance. She prayed to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord and the Holy Spirit moved unto her life just as Scripture promises. A side note: Mary Ann shared her conversion with a neighbor who also was raised Catholic but not a Christian and when she understood inviting Jesus into her life and her Lord and Savior she prayed and immediately received the Holy Spirit and has been walking with Jesus every day since then.
My conversion experience was a bit different. I did not want to acknowledge Jesus as Lord. I wanted to live my own life under my own authority. Where Mary Ann recognized Jesus as Lord but did not have a relationship with Jesus as Savior, I was refusing to recognize Jesus as Lord. When I was 12 in a church service the Holy Spirit said if I didn’t turn to him right then he would stop talking with me. I got to the front of the church as fast as I could, and not run, but that invitation was just for me. I prayed John 3:16 - - “For God so loved Randy that he gave his only Son that if Randy would believe in him Randy would would not perish but Randy would have eternal life.” At the end of that prayer the Holy Spirit moved into my body and life and I knew for certain that I was a child of God. I recognized and accepted Jesus as Lord and got salvation in the package. I was humbling myself before the Lord. He was King and I no longer was going to be king of my little world.
These people in John 6 where just fine with their lives (like I was with mine) and they were not seeking to know their Messiah and they most certainly did not want to submit their lives to Jesus as the living representative of the Father. Jesus was calling them to him regardless of food. Matt 16:24 - - “Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” These people choose to not deny themselves and follow. I choose to deny self and follow Jesus. Mary Ann choose to accept Jesus into her life and her personal Lord and Savior.
I meant to get back to you sooner on your response to my previous comment.
Here I’ll just offer that it’s not clear that someone who doesn’t believe that sins can be mortal can commit a mortal sin. That something is serious and immoral seems insufficient to create the condition, the person, even if they are Catholic, has to believe that what they propose to do will cut them off from the Divine Life. Or so I have heard from knowledgeable Catholics.
As for your other citations from the Catechism, I don’t see how they can be applied to Protestants without negating the passages in their favor elsewhere. One, or the other must be ultimately true of them and the other false, or not applicable.
Every context of Mortal Sin for Catholics does not necessarily apply to Protestants. For example, receiving the Eucharist in a state of Mortal Sin cannot apply to Protestants since they cannot receive the Eucharist. This also would be a revealed truth, not a natural one.
However, Protestants do believe in mortal sins of Natural Law. For example, if someone claims to be Christian and performs abortions, Protestants will say that the person is not a "true" believer or they were never saved, to begin with. The epistemology may differ between Catholics and particular Protestant sects, but the result is still the same, separation from God.
So you're correct in that some things would not apply consistently, because of the nature of Protestantism not being definable, and secondly, because Mortal sins fall into two categories: issues of disobedience that only apply to Catholics, and issues of disobedience that violate God's natural law.
If Catholicism is true, then the sacrament of penance and the Eucharist -- i.e., Jesus Christ -- is the universal solution to the universal problem. This isn't to say that God does not make exceptions (see thief on the Cross), but if our theology leads to more people getting into Heaven due to their ignorance, than due to their belief and obedience to Christ, then we have misunderstood the Gospel.
Always interesting to observe how different people have a very different view the same Scripture. I can't remember when I first read that passage in John 6 but the meaning has always been very clear for the past 50 year or so. Life's journey for each one is their own. What a Hoot.
What's your interpretation, and why does it agree with the Catholic one?😜
My thots on John 6:26-31 that started about 50 years ago and continues to today. An interesting journey. See what you think. No comparisons to Catholic doctrine. Just my thots.
John 6:26-31
26 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
- First off - - they were not looking for their Messiah, the King of kings
- They wanted physical, earthly food
- OK – now what
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
- The logical question, but keeping in mind that they really don’t want Jesus they just what the earthly food he can provide.
29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
- Believe in the one he has sent - - interesting
- They had no problem believing the earthly food but could not understand Jesus offered heavenly food or that which is not of this world
- So – about 50 years ago this struck me
-
30 So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
- Jesus calls them up to himself as their Messiah but they want signs just like the religious leaders
- So, just exactly how much sign did they need and how much sign do we need to believe in Jesus as the Son of God and avior that has come????
- Or - - will we follow Jesus regardless of what happens in life????
Mary Ann said the words that Jesus was the Savior and Lord in Catholic Mass but she wasn’t saved and a Christian until she read the Four Spiritual Laws. She understood the first three laws because of the solid teaching of the Catholic church in her youth. She was in college and attending Mass every day because she was serious about her relationship with the Lord. But she still was not a Christian and had not yet received what Paul talks about in Gal 4:6 - - “And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" And again in John 15:26 - - "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.” And three times in Romans 8 Paul talks about us receiving the Holy Spirit as evidence that we are, as Paul says, children of God. She had not received the Holy Spirit and was not a child of God even with all the religious observance. She prayed to receive Jesus as Savior and Lord and the Holy Spirit moved unto her life just as Scripture promises. A side note: Mary Ann shared her conversion with a neighbor who also was raised Catholic but not a Christian and when she understood inviting Jesus into her life and her Lord and Savior she prayed and immediately received the Holy Spirit and has been walking with Jesus every day since then.
My conversion experience was a bit different. I did not want to acknowledge Jesus as Lord. I wanted to live my own life under my own authority. Where Mary Ann recognized Jesus as Lord but did not have a relationship with Jesus as Savior, I was refusing to recognize Jesus as Lord. When I was 12 in a church service the Holy Spirit said if I didn’t turn to him right then he would stop talking with me. I got to the front of the church as fast as I could, and not run, but that invitation was just for me. I prayed John 3:16 - - “For God so loved Randy that he gave his only Son that if Randy would believe in him Randy would would not perish but Randy would have eternal life.” At the end of that prayer the Holy Spirit moved into my body and life and I knew for certain that I was a child of God. I recognized and accepted Jesus as Lord and got salvation in the package. I was humbling myself before the Lord. He was King and I no longer was going to be king of my little world.
These people in John 6 where just fine with their lives (like I was with mine) and they were not seeking to know their Messiah and they most certainly did not want to submit their lives to Jesus as the living representative of the Father. Jesus was calling them to him regardless of food. Matt 16:24 - - “Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” These people choose to not deny themselves and follow. I choose to deny self and follow Jesus. Mary Ann choose to accept Jesus into her life and her personal Lord and Savior.
Interesting journeys all. Randy